... and I don't think this necessarily means disrespect towards this person or any fat person in general. Or do you think this creation should be destroyed:

http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~hermanns/art/43.html

Haven't had a chance to check the link you provided yet....

I thought about waiting to comment until the end of the theme, but I can see this is generating a lot of emotional reponse, so allow me to add my thoughts here:

I did not post this without knowing this was going to cause a stir.

Blizzard, I do not find thi person beautiful. I know plenty of obese people whom I consider beautiful, even attractive, but I see nothing beautiful about this woman. Maybe you're saying that to be kind, maybe you find every obese person beautiful, maybe you're being generous, maybe kind, and maybe condescending.

I single out your comment not because I want to put you on the spot, but because I want to show how people's feeling about the obese (and other disabled people) might affect how they feel, or at least think they feel, or think they ought to feel (publicly.)

Let me add two things: I know several extremely obsese people. Some of them are unhappy, some of them are unhappy because of the pressure brought upon themby society to look a certain way, and some of them are quite happy. They are unaffected by society's expectations, though a little pissed off that fun clothes don't come in their sizes. So be it.

Another thing: I am from Europe. We have some fat people, even a few obese people (the German beer-maiden is not just a clichee fantasy) but we don't have the kind of massively obese people found easily in the United States. It is a uniquely American thing thus far.

I find them disgusting.

No one wakes up one day and says "Oh my God, I'm a 150 pounds over-weight." It takes dozens of years to ramp up to that weight, and no one has misconceptions about health and appearance. There may have been people in the 1960s who didn't realize smoking was bad, but people have known for thousands of years that the human body has a certain ideal range, and that too thin or too fat is bad news.

Yes, I understand there are genetic predispositions to retaining weight. Yes, I know that people have glandular imbalances. Yes, I know some people can't afford to shop at Whole Foods. But the fact is that obesity is a prime symbol of a selfish society with little regard for its own well-being, or that of others.

I sat next to this woman for two hours, and watched her order, eat, and finish a LOT of food and soda.

We have been conditioned to feel bad for the disabled, and that is the appropriate response. It is human instinct to care for one self, and discard the weak and the inferior. Morality (often presented to us in the form of religion) is the answer to lift us above that, and to help those that are weaker than we are. It is the right thing to do, and it is what ultimately differntiates us from animals. We are not a heard, we are sentient beings.

That comes with responsibility for others, and for ourselves.

But what if that person is self-destructive? What if we characterize this self-destructiveness as disfunction? Is it a disorder? An addiction? Is it selfish? Is there a difference?

Why do you think so? Because you care about that person? Or because you want to perceive yourself as someone who is caring and nurturing? Is it tied to your own morality?

I feel very strongly about this topic, and cannot make (or preemptively refute) every point. But yes, I posted this image purposely.

...oh, and I'm pretty proud (technically, photographically) that I caught the hand's stabbing motion at the end of the Coke.

"...oh, and I'm pretty proud (technically, photographically) that I caught the hand's stabbing motion at the end of the Coke."
Jup, gives it a neat effect!

Little question, how did you get her photo? Did you ask? Did you just take it? Did she realize?
What was her reaction?

I never ask permission. I do a lot of "street photography" (which I guess means candid non-journalistic shooting) but do not use my images for commercial purposes. I do not need permission, and find that asking usually leads to "no." I know the good-boy nice thing would be to ask, but Ifind being liked over-rated. I reserve that energy for my online persona :-) In real life I'm a practicing misanthrope.

So, what was her reaction? Or did she not notice?
I'm just intrested, tell me if you find those questions annyoing, but I'm often in such situations!

Oh, and to answer the second part of your question ChriZ: I took several pictures in the course of about 90 minutes. I shoot with a manual focus Leica M8, so once my focus was set I just occasionally picked up the camera and took a picture. I don't know if she realized it or not. I was part of a 7-person group of photographers on a weekend walk-about shoot in Hollywood. We were breaking for an early dinner waiting for twilight. She was a tourist.

Ah, there you go ;-)

Btw, usually I'm pretty "in your face". I'm 6'3" 230 pounds, which helps when people try to yell at me, but makes it hard to be low-key or anonymous.

I like shooting with one or two other photographers occasionally because you push yourself into situations you might be unwilling to explore alone. This is particularly true in areas just off downtown LA, for example. In a place like that, one guy might be a cop (or health inspector, or journalist, or La Migra) but two or three doofuses with cameras are usually college students or artsy types.

But a smaller camera helps, and you have to be willing to not back down.

Obesity in my mind shows a lack of self-control, and self-respect. There are some people who tend toward over-weightness, but no one is naturally pre-disposed to be 300+ pounds. It's not something that "just happens." A person who is 50+ years old and over 100 pounds overweight did not just wake up that way. I understand that they may have emotional issues and that obesity is the result of an emotional disfunction. But that just points out the issue, it still not acceptable to let oneself go. I feel the same way about heroin addicts (a topic that I know a lot about, but will not discuss with anonymous strangers in a publicly accessible internet environment.) Letting oneself go with drugs may be caused by emotional trauma and be worthy of understanding and pity, but it is not an acceptable excuse. You owe it to yourself and to the people that love you to lead a life that does not hurt you or the people that love you. Obesity should not be as acceptable as it has become. Most people may not be able to do anything about it short of surgery, but they got there without much regard to exercise or nutrition. This is a uniquely Western issue.

I'm not the kind of person who makes oinking noises behind people. I feel bad for this woman because there is no way that she can ever lead a healthy life at this point. Her joints are shot, her metabolism is unbalanced, and her entire body is in extreme decline. I bet you she's barely over 60, but has an extremely short life expectancy. But I also bet you she was not this heavy 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, and certainly not 30 years ago. This does not "just happen."

To qualify: I do not feel strongly about obese people; I feel strongly about people who have issues they are unwilling to address, and the people who enable them.

There are really two issues in play here, and they are being conflated. The one is obesity and how society does or ought to view people who are obese. The second, which is the one I am more interested in, is the issue of posting pictures of people without their consent when doing so may be harmful to them.

Even if one accepts all of Flatline's views on obesity and the character flaws it may reflect, and one is disdainfull of the obese generally, the question remains as to whether it is right to take a picture of a particular person who is obese and post it in a forum where that person is thereby being held out as a figure of contempt and ridicule.

The arguments about obesity themselves are not without some merit, and certainly have a place in public discourse, but to potentially cause harm to a specific person, not a public figure or representative of the group, but just a member of the public, raises serious moral issues. And can it be questioned that if she, or members of her circle of family, friends, or colleagues, stumbled upon this shot in this forum, that it would cause her harm? I think not. And it is no answer, in my view, to say that a person who allows themselves to become obese, thereby deserves, or somehow is fair game, for abuse.

Aside from the moral issue of potentially causing harm to someone without sufficient justification, there are interesting legal issues in the margins of this question. Our notions of privacy rights are being transformed in this era of technological change. And there are increasing claims that a person has a legal right in their persona and image, and that they cannot be appropriated for public use without the individual's consent. A court in Quebec, Canada has even given judgment in favour of a person who claimed that a photograph of her on the side of a public street had been published without her consent.

I am sure that Flatline meant not harm to this woman, and was making a more general statement on an issue that he feels strongly about, but I think it raises serious issues for discussion.

Food for thought.

Well, I've read the counter arguments. I thoroughly agree with flatline. He has put forth a considered opinion and he has not villified her. I don't find fat people attractive and I have known a few in my time. When I hit puberty, what was hard wired into me was to look for a mate. Now, the animal kingdom as well as us looks at a mate to be healthy. You also look for the opposite sex to be balanced symetrically facially. This reflects that as they were nurtured that sustinance was provided in a continual process and therefore allowed the body to grow naturally. We look at potential mates for flaws becuase it is, on a basic level about keeping our gene pool healthy.

I play squash a minimum of 3 times a week. I like to compete but most of all, I want to be attractive, I do not consider over indulgence and the subsequent obesity that goes with this to be, healthy...

I am glad that you opened such a debate flatline and approached it with a maturtity that did away with the emotional knee-jerk reaction. I feel it is a pity that this did not get featured.

"She is a beautiful woman" I find to be patronising and as you argue yourself Blizzard, flatline may not have gotten to know her but you cetainly don't know her and can only judge her exterior and by that alone, she is anything but beautiful.

Mooch, not to beat a dead horse, but you still do not address the second issue. One can agree with Flatline completely on the social, personal, and cultural ills of obesity, but still question whether it is right to hold out the image of a specific person in a manner that could cause him or her harm. What do you say on that question?

Ok, I would say that we are photographed in big cities up to three hundred times a day. On some such occassions we may be under duress or not wish to be recorded on a given day because of our state of dress. We have no choice.

As flatline points out he has a large camera and she chose to be in this 'public' environment. She also chose to be a representative of a very much considered statistic by her very eating habits. Therefore I feel that is is wholly feasible to submit this image for public dissection. If you ask people if you can shoot then more often than not they either say no or the image becomes contrived.

I also feel that flatline sparked a debate that is very much emotive but no less relevant in today's society.

I must admit that posting this picture might hurt this person's feelings. I don't like that, but I am playing the odds that it is unlikely she will find this image. I take no joy in hurting people's feelings, esp. in a way that makes them a poster-person for something I publicly dislike. This person would have good cause to be very hurt and pissed off. But I would stand by my action, just as she would have to stand by her appearance.

The same day this was posted I spent all day at the beach trying to get the same type of shot. This was my first thought when I heard saw the theme was big. Although, to be quite honest I wanted to show a big bottom in a bikini. I just didn't get the shot I wanted. I have been 270lbs myself, not as a result of overeating, but as a result of a medication. I then lost it as a result of dieting and exercise, although I don't think that's relevant to this photo. I also think that as long as you are in a public place you are giving your consent to have your photo taken and used at least in the US. You have no right to privacy as long as you are out in public.

Blzzard. I'm sorry, she is not beautiful because her figure is not what is aspired to. You may find every human being beautiful but society, the medical profession and I dare say, were you to ask this woman, would all say that this is not a medically safe or beautiful shape to be in. I stand by what I said. It is just vacuous to say "I find every human being beautiful on the outside". That isn't possible and is subsequently not a sincere comment. Where are you seeing the beauty in something so monstrous? The weight gained is as flatline says a reflection of the inner turmoil within.

@mooch...if one's inner turmoil were not within, where would it be?

No inner turmoil here...the more Zen-like my inner self, the more Buddha-like my outer self.

Just joshing with you, mate. :>)

One clarification: I did not say that the weight gain is based on turmoil. It might be. But I don't assume that, and I accept dysfunction based on emotional turmoil only on a short-term basis.

To clarify: I do not accept someone saying they spent 20 years addicted to drugs because mommy didn't hug him enough... or daddy hugged too much. As horrible as an experience may have been, it shouldn't be allowed to dictate a person's life.

Let me further aggrevate the discussion, and poke some more eyes with a dirty finger:

I do not know this woman. I cannot assume that she has had a terrible experience. It seems to be a common reaction to assume a person is somehow disabled and worthy of pity - that she is somehow blameless.

But there is another human reaction that is equally wrong, whereby somehow the victim is ALWAYS to blame.

"She shouldn't have been out at night in such a short skirt..."

"He should have known that neighborhood is full of *those* people..."

Humans often try to qualify something that happens to others in order to create an emotional safety barrier. By attributing it some fault, they give themselves a false sense of safety.

"It couldn't happen to us...."

Am I wrong? Am I fooling myself? Could obesity happen to me?

Ya know.... the more I think about it, the more pissed off I get.

I posted this picture purely based on her size. I made no comment as to whether I find her attractive or repulsive until you (Blizzard) assumed I was demeaning her.

I don't find her physically attractive, but that was NOT why I posted it.

Well, imagine this: I took this picture in a diner in Selma two weeks ago. It was full of White Supremacists who were organizing a counter-march. She was a lead coordinator, and the pouch on the table has her BlackBerry in it.

Still loving her? Still feeling sorry for her?

The power of a good image is that you can interpret something into it. There is no information here other than a picture of the woman. Each of us has chosen to see this a certain way.

Pffftt.... I declare myself Featured!

Everyone, this discussion has gotten too heated. From the sidelines I can see feathers are ruffled on both sides. However, it's not worth quitting the site over. This too shall pass and none of it has anything to do with photography, which is why I thought we were all here. I'd hate to lose the wonderful contributions you all make over the words posted around this contribution. Why not just let it go and we'll move on?

I'm with kadenajack.

"I'm glad you do, because it allows for others to see one of your flaws."

I'm disappointed you've chosen to attack and insult me personally at this point. I would like an apology.

I read a saying whilst at a friends:

"Dead fish float with the current; live fish swim against it."

I strongly believe in voicing my opinion and engaging people in a debate, heated or otherwise. The fact that we all feel so much passion, about topics beyond photography is good but none of the thoughts should be taken to heart.

If you are going to get offended by people's reactions or views then perhaps this isn't the place for you but personally I think that as kadenajack has stated, this will blow over and we'll argue about the next theme.

Just ask King; he and I have had some right ding dongs but one thing I have realised (I am getting sentimental here now) is that he is a stand up guy and although he sparks conflict and irks me at times, well, he is always willing to discuss the issue and fight fire with fire. I like that.

Photography, life it's about passion. Without that you just have a load of sycophants saying "I like that image, oh no, I like your image more" and that achieves nothing.

Express your opinion no matter how controversial but don't dwell on it and don't take it personally, life's too short.

I have *never* shared a Ding Dong with mooch.

http://www.countrygardendoxie.com/images/Ding_Dong_Brawny.jpg

I don't share my Ding Dongs.

Ha ha ha. No and I would not partake in their consumption either. They look ghastly.

I think sir has too much time on his hands, eh King?

I get up early.

<I feel the same way about heroin addicts (a topic that I know a lot about, but will not discuss with anonymous strangers in a publicly accessible internet environment.)>

But you feel compelled to have lengthy discussions about obesity?

<Letting oneself go with drugs may be caused by emotional trauma and be worthy of understanding and pity, but it is not an acceptable excuse.>

Oh, this is worthy of understanding, but obesity isn’t? And how exactly do you justify that answer? If as you say, obesity is simply caused by eating habits and lack of exercise, would this not be considered an addiction to food?

Remember that in the deadly sins gluttony includes drug use.

<Most people may not be able to do anything about it short of surgery, but they got there without much regard to exercise or nutrition. This is a uniquely Western issue.>

REALLY! So it would clearly be pointless to have any discussions about metabolic and digestive diseases, hormonal imbalances; or how all the chemicals, food additives, and the overall contamination of the food supply affects people? It would also be pointless to have any discussion how a healthy diet, as defined by the medical community in North America, negatively affects indigenous people? Or how Chinese principals of diet and nutrition are quite opposite of Western beliefs. All that would be pointless, because obviously any weight problem on any person in the world is a result of disgusting habits most likely caused by emotional problems.

I am SO glad that has finally been cleared up and we now have a definitive answer on this issue.

May karma be your companion.....

I may choose to respond on a comment-by-comment analysis later, I just don't have the time. But it seems you are unable or unwilling to read my comments carefully. Maybe it's because I'm a foreigner, and I'm not clear enough.