Ok, so now I know this is just smoke! Wow King this is just fantastic.

Amazing details in the cloud!
(some technical details, maybe?)

King masterclass!!

Fabulous!!

Wow, is this place accessible to travellers ??
Magic and feeric - really a cool image !!

King,
I see someone's been breathing on your lense, huh? :)

wow - simply fantastic!

this says 'space' more than it says "night" to me. cool, for sure. but night occurs where this is also day. at least in my opinion.

Hei King, 5's for all, but for me is more "astronomical photography" than a "night shot". :-)
I see a nuclear explosion on the left, can i use it in some of my "negative space" shot? :-))))

Wow! Wicked! Wicked! :-)))

Simply awesome. Can you share the details of how you captured this?

Nice capture of the Horsehead Nebula!! I've never even been able to see this from a regular telescope (10" DOB). Did you use a multi-shot technique to create this or maybe a REALLY powerful telescope? Great work, King!!

KING,

This is amazing. Give some details, please.

Folks,

This is an offering from a friend of mine, the retired (and great) advertising photographer and one of the world's great amateur astrophotographers, Kent Kirkley.

I'm in a little bit of trouble with Kent for adjusting the histogram and adding a warm tone. For the image as sent to me by Kent, go here:

http://www.kingdouglas.com/WeeklyShot/starscape.htm

Here are the technical details:

Telescope: Astro-Physics 160mm f7.7 1200mm Focal Length Telescope
Mount: Astro-Physics 1200 GTO Equatorial Mount

Camera: Santa Barbara Instrument Group (SBIG) STL-11000m dedicated and cooled CCD camera
Chip: 11 million pixel, 9 micron pixels, 24 x36mm
Camera cooled to -25 degrees C
Guided using an SBIG Remote Guide Head and eFinder

Image: 3-30 minute exposures taken through a 6 nanometer Hydrogen-Alpha filter

Processing: Image acquired and combined using Maxim DL software
Darkframe subtraction, Hot and Dead Pixel removal, Median Combined
PhotoShop CS, Levels, Curves and Unsharp Mask

Folks,

Thanks for all the favorable comments. I told Kent that I was doing this to share an image that was likely to be appreciated by many in the WeeklyShot group and one that I hoped would spark a little discussion on the meaning of "night" to photographers (you know *me*).

Ana said, "this says 'space' more than it says "night" to me. cool, for sure. but night occurs where this is also day. at least in my opinion."

Thanks for falling into my trap. Does night not occur on earth where it is also day? As Robert Frost said,

"Oh star, the fairest one in sight
We grant your loftiness the right
To some obscurity of cloud.
It would not do to say of night
Since dark is what brings out your light
Some mystery becomes the proud."

Do I understand you, that this isn't your photograph???

gmaladara said, "...for me is more "astronomical photography" than a "night shot". I see a nuclear explosion on the left, can i use it in some of my "negative space" shot? :-))))"

Nuclear explosion, indeed...of the fusion type. I'm glad you caught the reference and let this serve as a good example: you can never go wrong by including at least one nuclear explosion in your image.

Ana,
You fell into my trap again.

Yes, this is *not* my photograph. Do you have an issue with that? I can refer you to a number of Featured images that were not taken by the submitting photographer.

Yes, I have an issue with it.

And quit saying that I'm falling into a trap. That's ridiculous.

Ana,
You have the floor. Please expand.

We only really have two rules:

1. You need to have taken the image and own the copyright.
2. You can't put your name on the image or otherwise mark it, because that will destroy the anonymity.

Uh oh. I' going to stand back. I feel another nuclear explosion approaching.

King'
Can you point me to the images, featured or otherwise, that were not taken by the submitting photographer?

King'
Can you point me to the images, featured or otherwise, that were not taken by the submitting photographer?

Dialog...this is a good thing.

Ana,
You are inconsistent in your insistence that the rules be followed. Two of my three submissions in the Negative Space theme were photographs taken by others, and you seemed to approve of one of them.

panhandlin
Happy to provide, but please give me some time because we don't have a good search function on WS, so I'm going to have to search images, theme by theme, to track down the links. There are at least two that I remember clearly and there may be more.

This is a little bit of an issue he says wading in. I know of lots of good photogrpahers but it is up to them to register and list the image, rightfully under their name. Defeats the point behind this site otherwise. Still, you always bathe in the limelight be it for infamy or praise.

Um, I think the next image I will provide will be by Michael Kenna, he is world renowned...

Had I known they weren't taken by you, I would not have approved. How is someone supposed to know this when the rating and voting is anonymous?

Argh. It's in the rules. And who cares if anyone else has done it. It's against the rules. Period.

to add...I've assumed and trusted that all images submitted here were taken by the member themselves.

Because you know, it's in the rules.

I have to agree whole heartedly, otherwise what is the point of this entire process?

Um, I think the next image I will provide will be by Michael Kenna, he is world renowned...

I'm with Ana but what I am not with is the fact that we have to explain this just for your ego King. I mean, how hard is it to follow?

To add...I personally would not be impressed knowing I helped feature a photo from a non-participating photographer, even if they are aware their shots are being posted. If they DON'T know their shots are being posted...well...that's just wrong, period.

I seem to have struck a nerve.

Here, for your enjoyment, is one of the featured photos I am referring to:

http://www.weeklyshot.org/theme/dog/response/93/

mooch...I have no ego. You must be thinking of someone else. You don't want to start trading insults with me again, do you? It didn't get you anywhere last time.

Dave_Mac...I had permission. I'm aware that some of you think of this as a competition because Brandon refers to some such on the masthead, but I don't think of it as such...as should be obvious.

Perhaps you are offended enough to ask Brandon to reneg my membership. Go ahead. I won't protest.

I wonder how many photos have been posted that were not taken by the participating photographer, and were just not made public.

Okay, folks, just kidding. This is my photo. Feel better?

King, you've got a point but that is family not 'one of my mates'. It is an image of a era long past from which I very much interpreted Absolutely could not have even dreamt to shoot it. I also felt it to be far more poignant. Yours on the other hand smacks of "I haven't a relevant image I'll take a punt with a mates". If that were conducive to this site then I would be putting a different blogger each time as I'm sure they wouldn't mind. I don't because it isn't in the remit!

mooch
But you are rationalizing. Is it a rule, as Ana says, or is it not a rule? Show me the rule that says, "If the image is of an era long past and you like the image, then it's okay. If not, insult the fat bastard who posted it and tell him to go away."

The photograph I posted is of something that happened millions of years ago...does that count. In addition, any photographer on earth, with the right equipment, using a similar technique, would come up with EXACTLY THE SAME PHOTOGRAPH...unless, of course, he or she waited some thousands of years for the stars to change their apparent position in the NIGHT sky.

Anyone who posts an image that is not their own is breaking the rules. Simple as that.

You broke the rules, and so did the person who posted the cute little dog.

End.

mooch said, insultingly, 'Yours on the other hand smacks of "I haven't a relevant image I'll take a punt with a mates".'

When I don't have a relevant image I admit it. I don't think I have to prove my ability to post a relevant image.

mooch, you're a good guy...I know that. Do you think you can say, "I don't approve--don't do it again" without tossing in insults?

Ana,

What's the punishment, besides being insulted and, otherwise, being told off in public?

By the way, I do not apologize and none is forthcoming.

Please remove the image from featured status...I had nothing to do with that. While you're at it, track down all the other instances in the past year when people have posted images not their own, remove them from Featured status if they had attained it, and appoint someone to track them down and send them threatening e-mails that slander their character.

At least we're talking. That's good.

No it doesn't count, that is semantics. I could shoot something that happened 'millions of years ago' tonight, as I could any night. A bygone era, as in something that would have occurred beyond my lifetime but the light was not still being emitted this very day (happy with that clarification) differs somewhat. Technically and I do not dismiss this, the image wasn't taken by him, but it was of his bloodline and not, I'll say again, one of his mates. I mean, how big a library of images do you need King? Perhaps if you don't have a relevant image you should give weeklyshot a break, thus, giving us all a break...

To add...I personally would not be impressed knowing I helped feature a photo from a non-participating photographer, even if they are aware their shots are being posted. If they DON'T know their shots are being posted...well...that's just wrong, period.

Dave_Mac...didn't you already say that?

mooch, I'm going to help you out here. Here's one of your remarks that I got as an e-mail but which failed to get posted. Maybe it will show up later, but then it will be out of context.

mooch said:
----------------------------------------
This is a little bit of an issue he says wading in. I know of lots of good photogrpahers but it is up to them to register and list the image, rightfully under their name. Defeats the point behind this site otherwise. Still, you always bathe in the limelight be it for infamy or praise.
----------------------------------------

mooch said, insultingly, 'Yours on the other hand smacks of "I haven't a relevant image I'll take a punt with a mates".'

That is what it smacks of yes, that statement is not offensive, this whole string is offensive, to all of our intellect. Spoil for a fight all you want, we are all agreed, it is only you trying to cause a storm via a teacup. That's my final word on the matter. Sheesh, I haven't visited for a while and I do and find myself humouring you with a response even though you know full well what the answer and opinion will be.

mooch,
Admit that you simply don't like me...I can take it. Say it, then insult me, it will make you feel better.

By the way, you are getting your share of the limelight here. How does it feel, mate?

Okay, let's take a vote. mooch says this "string" is "offensive, to all of our intellect." He also says, "We are all agreed."

Did I miss a meeting?

Insult and run, mooch. That's your style.

This does say space to me over and above night which it has in a secondary contest but while I greatly admire this image I have to say I too thought that all the photos posted here at WS were of those taken by the presenting photographer and it dissappoints me greatly to learn that it wasn't taken by you. I do think that it if a photographer has images to be posted they should be invited to post their own and not through a WS member. But I'm fairly new here so whatever...

OK,I admit: I posted photos that were not taken by me, but my camera :(

Damn - I go to sleep and y'all have a good ol time! What kind of friends are you?!

First, what a shot. Wow. High fives all around. More importantly, send an invite to Señor Kirkley! Actually, come to think of it, I still have an invite lying around so I'll do that myself...

Second, I have no problem at all that you posted this shot, King. Had you not done so, more than likely I wouldn't have had the chance to feast my eyes on it. In fact, my only problem with it is that it's only 750x500. I'd like to see a larger version. (Perhaps the one on your site is larger? I'll go check that out after posting this.)

On the copyright issue, evidently Kirkley had given permission (sans histogram/warming adjustment - oopsy King!) for King to post this. For those who doubt it, send an e-mail to Kirkley yourself (although hopefully my invite will get him over here anyway).

On the notion that it's not in the rules, well that's a fair observation. I wouldn't want anyone to willy nilly post images that aren't theirs. Do I think this is rampant on WS? No. But, frankly, there's no way to police it and we all have to simply trust one another. Of course, if I saw a photo submitted by someone who I knew wasn't the author, I'd pounce on that if the submitter didn't explain it themselves.

In this case, and the one by AbsolutelyN, I'm totally fine with it. They both fall into acceptable reasons why, most profoundly because the submitter offered up that fact themselves, and secondly because the photos are stunning. Those who portray themselves as being the author of featured images (i.e. without offering an explanation of why they submitted the shot) are living in a fantasy land; they need to feel like they're something they're not. This case doesn't fall into that category.

Lastly, for those who want to engage King, my humble suggestion is to "attack" him with logic and humor. You'll get much farther. Good luck :-)

A suggestion: if next time someone feels he/she should post someone else's pic,then he should place the very first commentwith thze acknowledgement - almost like AbsolutelyN did.

And,last AND least, King, if you can do any wonder to MY photos, feel free to do so - and you may even post them :DDD

My vote is to simply drop this subject. Dialog is great, but slander and backstabbing just for kicks is not necessary. I speak to both King and mooch.

To play devil's advocate, and somewhat to split hairs...

King, I think most would agree that his is a brilliant image you have posted. However, if it is someone else's photograph, let them join and post for themselves.

Having said, that, I'm not sure what the problem really is. I see Ana's argument that it is against the rules. However the point of WS is to anonymously rate images. That is, images, not photographers. Hence the inherent need for anonymity in the first place.

I'm not quite sure where I stand on this issue personally. I don't think that anyone should call for King's resignation, after all he is one of the most poignant contributors on this site. But, I also do not see the need for posting other people's photographs, especially just to create a stir.

King, I throughly enjoy your usual semantics, this (forgive me for the phrase) gimmick included. However, in the past I feel like you have had a point to make and made it clearly and concisely, often pointing out fallacies in other people's (myself included) thinking. I do not see any relevance here, and I can't quite grasp what the point of posting this image was; it seems just to stir up controversy.

Though, as I said, it's a beautiful image, and I am glad to have seen it. So, let's drop it and move back to the aim of WS; any further conversation on this subject seems useless at this point.

@bioLarzen,

I agree that a comment should be made immediately, though it wouldn't help as far as rating go. I think that is some people's issue, though as I said, a main component of WS is anonymity and rating of IMAGES, not photographers.

Also, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments regarding the edits of images by others. I feel many people are much too stuck on copyright issues, etc., when one should more properly focus on the art inherent in such trespasses.

@George...support! I weep"

@BioLarzen...I posted the image just before going to bed and posted the disclaimer immediately opon waking to see the image featured. In between, I was sleeping. And thanks for the understanding.

@SeekingFocus...thanks for your eloquent remarks. See the my following post below.

Folks,
I've reconsidered and do humbly apologize for breaking one of the rules. If I could have posted a disclaimer with the original image, I would have.

I got my back up here because the tone of *some* of the criticism seemed hostile and insulting, and I didn't mean to offend anyone. Following is an e-mail I send to Brandon Stone a few minutes ago:

Brandon,

I've decided to offer an apology for my mistake of posting Kent Kirkley's amazing star image--it *is* against the rules--although I really was using precedent for offering a photo, with permission, that was taken by someone else and my underlying motive was not nearly so nefarious as some appear to see it.

Is it possible, and would you mind taking the time and trouble to remove image #50 and all comments from the Night theme? I think that may be best.

I'm going to post my apology immediately, followed by a copy of this message.

If you choose not to remove the image and the associated comments...I can take the heat.

Regards,

King

I think further comment is necessary (and not useless) because what bothers me most is that WS is about the images (of course) AND the photographers. The dialogue and learning we receive participating here (and that is why I admire and respect King even when I disagree at times with him) is part of the incentive to participate. However when I click on a photographers name I am wanting to see the photos taken by THAT photographer and expect them to be so because of the rules. When I do click back to see the quality of images posted by that photographer, and see where and what images were featured, there is nothing noting that they aren't from said photographer unless of course we go in and read through all the comments which is unlikely.

King you posted as I was typing. Best.

I hope all here will agree, weather or not Brandon decides to remove the image... we can let this rest?

I hope so, and get on to rating and commenting on the rest of the brilliant images posted so far this week. I feel it would be for everyone's benefit, and that of the community here at WS.

King, I respect your reason for asking Brandon to remove the image and comments.

However, I don't think that's the best approach. The image and comments serves as a placeholder for motivation, intention, and copyright, all of which are important and ought not to be swept under the rug simply because they can be fraught with high emotion. Let's not go down the path of revisionism and pretend this didn't happen simply because some people are agitated.

Okay, okay I'll shaddup now!

One thing is clear for me: anybody can put an image if we are to learn, better, but....that anybody has to state since the beggining it´s not his photo, and the others may or may not vote.

eduardo, Thanks!
I made the same suggestion to Brandon offline--disclaimer up front, no ratings, comments only, some strict limitations. Of course we can't do that at this time, but I certainly would have done so if it had been possible.

I don't think this image or this discussion is going to be removed from WS and I don't mind if the discussion continues. I will not be defensive or attempt to rationalize what was clearly a mistake on my part.

"Two of my three submissions in the Negative Space theme were photographs taken by others" Am I the only one who had no idea this was happening? It has never even occurred to me that the person posting photos may not have taken them. I really want to get into this here, for many reasons, but I just needed to say this shocked me.

King you posted as I was typing. Best.

@ faustina. You're not the only one. It has me rattled, quite honestly.

Wow that is weird- I don't know how that last post showed up hours after I initially posted it and it was visible then.

Somehow King posted this right after I was done for the night and it got featured before I logged on this morning, so this is my first comment.

First of all, it's a stunning image. One day when I have access to all the equipment Kent does, I'd like to take it myself. King's right in that I've seen essentially the same image in several astronomy books, so no one is likely to break any new ground on this subject matter. However, very few of us have the wherewithal to even attempt it.

Now to the controversy. I think so much emotion was raised here because of the person who posted the photo. King as the resident thorn in the side, rabble rouser, you attract much more attention and illicit more emotional response just by the very nature of the way you participate. That's not a bad thing. You make this little slice of the web a much more interesting place. However, just by the nature of your experience and your skill, you're one of the people on Weekly Shot who is going to be held to a very high standard. You've got plenty of images to draw from for any theme that might come up, and clearly you are capable of taking a feature worthy shot anytime you'd like. This stunt was beneath you.

To your credit, you admitted this wasn't your image and in your last few posts you've certainly seemed to have a change of heart about your initial position regarding posting other people's work. I commend you for that.

King generally thinks out the things he says when they're truly criticisms. He does make some off handed remarks that not everyone gets, but he's usually the first to try to salve the hurt feelings when it's apparent he went to far. In this case, the consensus seems to be he did, and I think he's clearly admitted as much.

We do have an expectation that the photos here are posted by the original photographer. Whether you look at the site as a competition or not, there is a bit of one-upsmanship involved. Simply posting images from wherever that seem to fit the theme seems like it's against the point of having the site at all.

I'm sure we're all here for different reasons. I'm here because this group at its best gives me the kind of feedback I don't get with my photo blog or with the local photography club. I want to improve my craft and learn from the best. I think some of you on here are certainly representative of that and I respect the opinions greatly. I encourage you to not only rate my images, but tell me what you would change or better yet, how I could have done something differently to make a better image. Go ahead rip me to shreds. I need the feedback. I may come back at you, but that doesn't mean that I am not considering your points. In fact, I'm not completely happy with my one contribution to this theme. So anything anyone can do to help me out, I'm all ears.

Now maybe we can all go back to our corners and keep shooting. I love the night theme.

i had no idea people were posting photos that weren't their own. as far as i'm concerned if you didn't press the shutter button you shouldn't be posting it, even if you did get permission.

i've invited people here who i thought had great photos to post for a particular theme rather than just post on their behalf.

as i see it the point of weeklyshot is to get good anonymous critical feedback about your own photography.

this is a potluck of photos, so don't be the ass the picks up the already roasted chicken from the grocery store is all i'm saying. cook it yourself.

King adds much to this site irregardless of whether I agree with him or not, I'm happy he participates. Let's move on.

Just for the record - I emailed Brandon and got his approval before posting my grandfathers image of the dog. He died almost 10 years ago and I have thousands of his negatives - I just wanted to give the image a chance to be seen by people who would appreciate it rather than it simply gathering dust.

I agree with people that it's probably a good idea to move on, but I just wanted to post my reply to King's email. I'm still trying to figure out a good way to approach this kind of thing. If you want to start a thread in the Google Group feel free and we can discuss it there.

In the meantime, here was my reply to King...

----------

Hmmm... It is against the rules, but it's not like you did anything wrong. I mean, you clearly stated that it wasn't your photo... and you had permission, so where's the crime?

Rather than removing the photo, I'd like to find a way to allow this kind of thing within the bounds of WeeklyShot.

Thoughts?

-b

Negative space.

Personally, I don't want to rate the photos of people that aren't members here. I don't want to wonder, every time I'm commenting, if I'm doing it for the sake of someone that isn't a member. Someone stated that it's anonymous anyway, so what would the difference be? Well, I don't want to rate the shot that Uncle Billy took in WWII on the sidelines of the war. I don't want to rate the photograph of King's professional friends or his non-professional friends, either. Ask that person to become a member if they want their work rated here. To me, it's misrepresentation, and not what I signed up for. If you want to rate other people's photographs, great.... make a theme for it or add a 'tag' to the photo to let us know it is the work of someone other than the member.

Personally, I'm hurt and dismayed that this has been going on at weekly shots. I did NOT expect anyone to ever ever ever post a photograph by someone other than themselves, even if they got permission.

But Ana, you knew months ago.

http://www.weeklyshot.org/theme/dramatic-light/featured/205/

Why would you be "hurt and dismayed"? It's only a photo-meme.

Did someone show up at your door and frighten you with a photograph taken by someone else?

Did someone promise you that life would be fair?

Do you have any suggestions in response to Brandon's query?

Ignoring all but your last question, as I'm not getting into it with you after your 'trapping' games.

Yes, I did give a suggestion.
Did you read my reply through, or just think of snappy comebacks while you skimmed it?

Ana: Personally I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Uncle Bill's photos taken in the 1940s or King's professional friends. Rate them or not, you'd be surprised how much you can learn from them. I see learning from feedback and looking at others work as the main point of WeeklyShot. However since it's such an issue I'll not post any more of my grandfathers photos here.

Ana

No trapping games (your words) here.

Sorry about overlooking your suggestion. To me, it read like a complaint.

I know I'm being hard on you, but you are being hard on others, as well. Perhaps you think you are the only one who experiences intense feelings or that your words have no effect on others. You could be a little more gentle, tolerant and understanding.

I didn't skim your comment...I know better than to do that because you are easily aroused--don't say you are not.

My "comebacks" are not "snappy." The one above took me almost an hour.

King: amazing image, the Horse Head Nebular is one of my favourites. I've only ever managed a fait outline of it with a guided telephoto lens. It takes a lot of patience to get an image this good. I prefer Kent's original image though - it has much more subtle detail.

I have really enjoyed reading this!
But it doesn't seem to lead anywhere!
So lets all take a step back!
King obviously wanted to contribute to WS with this shot, it is a special shot and we all are happy to have seen it!
Now, since the goal of WS is to get better in photography this post doesn't make too much sense, unless King would give a feedback to his friend with all the responses he got!
But this would get way to complicated, and maybe he doesn't want any feedback! So, in my opinion, don't take this personal King, I would say only to images of your own, since you are the one wanting to improve yourself!!!

Anyways, if you have good shots of friends, don't hesitate to send me a Link! Or post it up on Google groups!

I can also see why some people are angry, they feel cheated! You almost get featured on every theme, not everyone does! Then this feature gets accredited to your account, which actually does not make sense!... I know this sounds stupid and childish... but that's my impression...

anyways! Heads up everybody! Move on, post on, comment on! or something like that ;)

Thanks, ChriZ

Since you've addressed me personally, I'll make a few brief points in response.

1. I've been very down on myself since this controversy broke out. I hope no one thinks I will post another such photo unless Brandon changes the rules. I'm not impervious to criticism, although I don't respond well to insults. I'm down. You can stop kicking.

2. I had nothing to do with this shot's being featured, and didn't particularly desire it. I posted it as a conversation piece.

3. I bomb out on themes just like everyone else. I care more about having discussions about photography than I do about getting featured...is that not obvious? Is there a quota? It is if I should be ashamed about having 2 out of 5 of my shots featured. What's that all about? I can't vote for my own images and I'm very generous in rating the photos posted by others.

4. Arguments that deteriorate into personal attacks over someone's having broken a "rule," irrespective of intent or motivation, do not speak well of those who make those personal attacks (not referring to ChriZ).

5 (and last). Raise your hand if you regularly read and participate in the WS Google group (about 1 in 20 hands go up). If you haven't noticed the level of my participation in the Google group, then you haven't been paying attention. This is a much more effective forum for the sharing of ideas, IMHO, than the Google group.

Hey King,
Look...I recognize the fact that you are down on yourself for this whole thing. That has not gone unnoticed by me. And, I hate it when the righteous start circling like vultures. Your apology was well given and is well accepted (even with a bit of embarrassment...I hate watching people apologize, for some reason).
But ChriZ actually hit the nail on the head here. This is a competition, and people are here to win. I know, I know, everyone wants to learn, and striving to win is a good way to learn. I'm sure you are happy when your shots are featured...me too. But you have a great deal of yours featured, and rightfully so, and from no slight of hand on your part.
But I think people got mad about this one, like ChriZ said, because they want so badly to be featured, and here you bring in some guy (a pro, no less) from the outside, and he hits a home run on the first pitch.
So, I think the bottom line here is that people feel betrayed.
So, for me, there is no loss of respect for you (in fact a gain in respect for your comments about how we can be more compassionate with each other).
Ana's idea is good...there could be a mechanism for us to add a tag if we see the need to post someone else's work.
No more mea culpas...
Say five...well, you know the rest : )

Thanks, eggplant,

I responded to Brandon on Friday that if he were to change the rules to allow photos by non-participating photographers to be posted, that information would be posted up front, the photograph would be available only for comment, not ratings and that such a posting would count double (2 of the three allowed per theme).

Personal question, eggplant. Do you feel betrayed yourself? or were you speaking on behalf of others? It seems as though others have already made their sense of betrayal perfectly clear.

I'm down. You can stop kicking now.

King,
I would feel betrayed if my wife cheated on me, or if my government tapped my phone line. I could not, would not, should not feel betrayed over what someone does in a photo-meme on the virtually anonymous world wide web. "Betrayed" is far too dramatic a word for this situation.
I was just trying to get into what others were feeling, and from a sociological point of interest trying to speak to what causes people to feel betrayed, and thus the kicking you are feeling.You seem to be somewhat dumbstruck by the whole thing, and so am I. So, I'm just trying to understand it through this discussion.
I certainly hope you don't think I'm kicking you. In fact, as I said, I am quite pleased with you for bringing up this point: "Perhaps you think you are the only one who experiences intense feelings or that your words have no effect on others. You could be a little more gentle, tolerant and understanding." Jürgen Habermas would be quite pleased with your understanding of the importance of this type of communication among humans.
And, all should feel free to keep this dialogue going, if they are interested in this sort of stimulation. The infinitesimal space it is taking up in the universe will have no adverse consequences on, say, the nebula depicted above.

*kick* =) I want to have some fun too...

quote: "I responded to Brandon on Friday that if he were to change the rules to allow photos by non-participating photographers to be posted, that information would be posted up front, the photograph would be available only for comment, not ratings and that such a posting would count double (2 of the three allowed per theme)."

Hmm,... I'm not sure where this would lead too, might be a neat feature, but then I like the simplicity of weeklyshot!
What would be interesting is to get away from this unfriendly google group thing, and create some kind of forum! AND THEN PUT A LINK ON WS THAT HAS AN EQUAL RIGHT TO THE VAZAAR LINK!
In that forum we can have all kinds of stuff,... so instead of kicking around here, we could go kick there =) I know forums,... but I think it could be a good thing for all of use, since you can build "deeper" relationships!

Is this completely stupid?

sorry King for abusing this comment box,... maybe something to the picture,... I like it!

*kick*...

and in forums you have the functionality to edit your post, thus correct all the spelling mistakes... sorry ;)

eggplant,

I've always enjoyed your well-considered opinions. You're a smart and educated guy.

What is becoming dreary is being reminded again and again how I have hurt others. I get it. I got it days ago. I never meant to hurt. Ya'll can stop reminding me.

It's like the congressman who exclaimed to another congressman who was speaking on behalf of a bill: "Stop explaining, some of us are for it!"

I know, eggplant, that you didn't intend to pile on. That's just how it felt from this side.

I appreciate your remarks, especially your closing remarks above.

ChriZ,

Funny, when you *kick* you don't seem to be putting so much effort into it. Thanks for that.

Right on King, we have now landed on the same pad of joyous understanding (except now I feel guilty). Just kidding! : )
Language is amazing, is it not? And how others interpret text-only messages can/will become an entire science. Can you imagine how differently this whole conversation would be going if we were, all of us, sitting in a room seeing each other, hearing the subtleties of each others' voices, watching the expressions of acknowledgment, disdain, and friendship on each others' countenances.
"Language is a virus from outer space."
- William S. Burroughs
(perhaps this quote and the photo in question and this discussion have converged for some significance at this point in the epic!)

eggplant,

youre saying "This is a competition, and people are here to win."

Well, not everybopdy. I am,for instance, not. None of my pictures have ever been featured, and how right they were not - they're not good enough. I am here to have fun, to see good photos and get ideas, to getconstructive criticism and to learn, of course. And, I guess, I am far from being the only one who's not after glory. I can understand thedisappointment of those who are, butthat's only one side of the coin.

bioLarzen, I didn't say that people are here only to win. But when I consider a site that rates images and then features the images with the top rankings, I sort of figure that one of the goals is to get your photos featured so that more people see them and comment on them. To me that still seems like fun, and does not negate any of the other great reasons you mention to participate.
But really, would you not prefer your images get recognized or featured? Is that not a goal of yours at all?
If not, in your case, I stand corrected. But I think it is okay and perfectly normal to want, even strive, to have your photographs featured on this site...otherwise, why have the voting culminate in the featuring of photos?

bioLarzen, I didn't say that people are here only to win. But when I consider a site that rates images and then features the images with the top rankings, I sort of figure that one of the goals is to get your photos featured so that more people see them and comment on them. To me that still seems like fun, and does not negate any of the other great reasons you mention to participate.
But really, would you not prefer your images get recognized or featured? Is that not a goal of yours at all?
If not, in your case, I stand corrected. But I think it is okay and perfectly normal to want, even strive, to have your photographs featured on this site...otherwise, why have the voting culminate in the featuring of photos?

I just wanted to sneak in here with the 100th comment. (Oh, and I'll be back later with some thoughts, too, time permitting... :-)

George
That should be worth at least a cup of coffee, if not an omelette!
:>)

Right on, brotha!

Hey, I have a great idea! I'll post George's photos, George can post Dan's, Dan can post Jack's yeah yeah yeah.......... Who wants to post my photos?? They usually do poorly, so I might get picked last! ha ha.
I think I'm onto something here!!

WEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!
right on brotha, indeed!

I'll post your photos Ana, since I don't have much of an archive of my own to trawl through for each theme (and it's too damn cold lately to go out and shoot much). ;)

I am disappointed.

yeah, no kidding about the cold, Dennis. I had only posted one night shot from my archives, thinking I'd try and go out there...but dang... forget it!

Wow...this thread is still alive and well I see.

King asked me to post this so I will, he has subsequently replied in private:

Hi King,

I've crossed swords with a number of folks at WS, but particularly, you. I have purposly held myself in check, before entering this discussion about your posted image #50, and I did go in and check out the rest of your own website, to get a clearer perspective on all of this (as you asked us to do, but which I try to do for all contributors anyway, as a rule of thumb).
Firstly, I'd like to say that Brandon should have nothing to do with this, in the first instance (perhaps way on down the line), and it was wrong to drag him into this. I commend him for sitting on the fence, as was his only true choice.
The debate should be where the photo sits in all it's glory, not in the semi-hidden environment of Google Groups.
King, I have nothing against you putting up an image for the sake of provoking discussion, but make it *yours*, that's the whole point of WS. I do not accept that you didn't realise where this might lead, you are much smarter than that, and I think you have disappointed many of your contemporaries by not coming clean straight away. The vehement reaction of some people though, I understand has truly shocked you.
I believe however, you could have avoided much of the irritation that swiftly built up toward you, had you simply apologised right at the beginning, instead of bating people, such as *mooch*, and *Ana*. The way you drive forward a discussion, does not always lend itself to friendly debate I think you will have to concede, as you have a penchant for exposing the weaknesses in peoples' arguments in a slightly mocking manner. Not everyone reacts well to that.
I would refer to eggplant's quote "Language is a virus from outer space." - William S. Burroughs in connection to the general debate over your....ahem....lol....your friend's featured image. Had we been sat in a room, this would have been a much more mild mannered affair, I like to think.
I believe, all in all, you got what was coming to you, in terms of criticism. You gave a few digs, you got a few. Isn't that the rub?
However, you were very kind to me, when I had a rough time fitting in here (which I still do really), even when I was quite rude to you. I would extend the same courtesy to you now, if you will allow me. I don't like to hear about you feeling down after this, you have little or no reason to.
Look at all the images you have graced this site with, all the great photographers you have invited here, the people you inspired, and have pushed to do better.
What I'm so clumsily trying to say is that, you made a boob, which nobody will remember next month. I don't really see it as such a grave miscarriage of justice, nor do I feel cheated, betrayed, duped, done over, or whatever. In the great scheme of things this has about as much significance in all our lives as the nucular (sic - Hi, Mr. Bush!) explosions going on in the left side of this stupendous, but not entirely relevant image.
You probably didn't need to hear any of this from a cheeky young monkey like me, so sorry for overfilling the already overflowing cup. I felt I had to let you know how I feel.

Chin up, Gin & Tonics on the veranda at 5.30 pm sharp!

eggplant,

you go "But really, would you not prefer your images get recognized or featured? Is that not a goal of yours at all?"

Yes,of course, you're right. But that can only be my goalfor the future. Right now I'm simply not there yet. I'm not that good. I'd know if any of my pictures got featured it would be by chance. So right now havingmy pictures featured is really notsomething I'm thinking about - that's more like a distant goal.

But, sincealmost everyone hereis a good photographer with great skills and technique+ equipment, what you're stating probably holds to the vast majority.

Ana,

I'll have your photos,then. Thank you very much :)))

woooooooooooaaaaa...guys...this has become a book and quite amusing to read...har..KIng just start fresh with vazaar...mmppf, no i accually thought it was quite cool of you to say that this was not your take...and i personally think it would be fine to post pics of friends...mmh or not..well as long as you post a comment saying so...ok nevermind...like the shot! tell your friend ;)!

Wow, what a dialogue. It's interesting to me how it's moving and spinning in place.

This is often the source of a deeper issue being played out... IMO, I wonder what the REAL issue is here: people posting other's shots OR some people having "better" post to feature ratios. It's like "it stings when I don't get my shot featured, but it stings more when someone else's shot, I know they didn't even take, gets featured...."

Dunno, I might be wrong here, but just a gut feeling... still curious about the real issue. Last I read in the FAQ is that: "[WeeklyShot's] less about being competitive, and more about community, contribution, and learning from each other." That being said, I feel I can learn from my WS community regardless if some shots posted by the WeeklyShot member aren’t hers/his. The point is dialogue, sharing, and learning, otherwise, doesn’t that have a hint of competitiveness? …especially when the member clearly states he’s not taken the shot, yet has permission to reproduce?

IMO, this isn't a moment to be trying to enforce the rule, but instead to question its validity...

Blizzard,

do we need any more reasons why we love you, Lockjaw Lady? :)))